Mr. Paine.

I don't believe he was concerned about that.
(Laughter.)

Mr. Paine.

No; I am sure he would see no distinction between the two parties.

Mr. Liebeler.

So he concluded that he was unable to categorize you?

Mr. Paine.

Yes. And I also felt as soon as he had realized that that he could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with.

Mr. Liebeler.

You mentioned that your wife became bothered or Oswald proved bothersome to your wife. Could you tell us in what way Oswald was bothersome to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Paine.

Well, I think one of the most outstanding was in this discussion of religions and I was trying to suggest that religions did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation was trying to talk about those values quite apart from--I think the Russian, I think Marina's view of religion is quite primitive never mind Marina. Ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no avail. She would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. But when he couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed the Communist line.
He talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was.
I had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated it. Well, this kind of thing.

Mr. Liebeler.

Upset your wife?

Mr. Paine.

Yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember any other conversation you and Oswald had during this first evening that you met?

The Chairman.

From the first day, are you going back to?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes.

Mr. Paine.

I think we probably spoke, I was trying still to find common ground with him, and I think we probably spoke critically of the far right. It even seems to me we may have mentioned Walker.
I had been bothered at the time that Walker had--I guess it doesn't do any good to enter into the matter because I don't remember his response.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you mention Walker's name during the first meeting?

Mr. Paine.

My memory is very foggy. But I would take it as--this was an impression.

Mr. Liebeler.

Give us your best recollection, and I want to ask you again this was in early April 1963, that you had this conversation, is that correct?

Mr. Paine.

It was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner and Ruth can give you the date of that.

Mr. Liebeler.

For the benefit of the Commission the record indicates it was about April 2, 1963, that that occurred. Tell us to the best of your recollection what the conversation about General Walker was at that time?

Mr. Paine.

I think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a German wife and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at the ceremony and General Walker had been invited to lead the singing, conducted by June Davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error of calling him Judge Walker every once in a while, and it somewhat offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. And she was rather sorry that Walker should take it upon himself to define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what this country stands for. So I think I mentioned this episode to him.

Representative Ford.

Him being Oswald?

Mr. Paine.

Oswald, and I think he smiled and nodded his assent. I don't think he said any--I don't think he made any important remarks about Walker.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember anything that he said about Walker at all?

Mr. Paine.

I think that is the only time, probably the only time we mentioned Walker.