Mr. Fehrenbach.

happier." He said, "Well, you would have been on the right side of the fence at least." And I said--

Mr. Griffin.

Who was it who said this?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

This was Lawson Jaffe. That was Sam's nephew. I said, "That is your opinion," and I said, "I will keep mine."

Mr. Griffin.

Was anybody else present during this conversation?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Yes; Sam was there.

Mr. Griffin.

Sam Jaffe?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Yes.

Mr. Griffin.

During the conversations and all the rest of the conversations that took place up in Jaffe's--

Mr. Fehrenbach.

They would always approach me whenever Sam was not there.

Mr. Griffin.

Shop?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

When Sam was there nobody said anything about this, concerning this, to me in any way, shape, or form.

Mr. Griffin.

Did you have the impression that Sam Jaffe was not in sympathy with these people?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

I had the impression that he was not in sympathy or if he was he certainly didn't want me in there. I can't say that Sam had anything against me personally because Sam treated me actually in many ways almost like a father. And I thought enough of Sam that I would have done anything for him. But like I say, he did get quite provoked on several occasions when he would come in there and catch them talking with me, especially Phil Jasser.

Mr. Griffin.

In the period from 1942 to 1944, did Sam Jaffe have any children who were living in Muncie?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Yes; and this is where I got mixed up. One of them I couldn't even remember until Mr. Mullaney, the FBI there, in Oregon, told me her name, that was Rosalyn, I believe, there was the one daughter that I had never really met. Marion was married to Max Pritcher. How you spell Pritcher, I don't know.

Mr. Griffin.

How old was Marion would you guess?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

I would say around 28 or 29.

Mr. Griffin.

She was about 12 years older than you?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Yes. I would say roughly that is about how old she was.

Mr. Griffin.

Now, did he have any other children?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

That was the only daughter that I knew of living in Muncie at that time. Now, where Rosalyn lived I don't know. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was married to Seymour Jasson.

Mr. Griffin.

Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was living with Seymour who?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Jasson.

Mr. Griffin.

How do you spell that?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

J-a-s-s-o-n; I would assume.

Mr. Griffin.

Did anybody besides Phil Jasser and Lawson Jaffe ever have any conversations with you about communism?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Herb and Morton Pazol would mention it but they never--I can't actually say. Their comments would more or less be made to the place where I could hear them but not directed. I don't believe directly at me .but yet it was put in such a way that I would have taken it to have been directed at me.

Mr. Griffin.

I take it then that all of the conversations that you had with these men occurred between 1942 and 1944 with the exception of the one conversation you had after you got out of the service?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

Well, after I got out of the service, that is when I got into the argument with Lawson, and then I believe Phil Jasser had, he had mentioned, I think on one or two occasions had said something about they had more or less after I had been in the service, they had more or less shied away from me.

Mr. Griffin.

When did you first come to think that these men were Communists?

Mr. Fehrenbach.

That was in either the latter part of 1946 or the early part of 1947.