Mr. Arce.

That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he was on the fifth; I am not too sure.

Mr. Ball.

What did you hear?

Mr. Arce.

He said "You all close the door on the elevator, I will be down," or somethin'. I didn't pay too much attention. He said to leave the elevator come down.

Mr. Ball.

Did you ever see him around there after that?

Mr. Arce.

No, I didn't see him around after that.

Mr. Ball.

Did you have lunch?

Mr. Arce.

Yeah.

Mr. Ball.

Where?

Mr. Arce.

In that little domino room there.

Mr. Ball.

Where did you go after that?

Mr. Arce.

I went outside.

Mr. Ball.

With whom?

Mr. Arce.

With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.

Mr. Ball.

Who is Junior?

Mr. Arce.

I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.

Mr. Ball.

Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?

Mr. Arce.

No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.

Mr. Ball.

What about Givens?

Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess---I mean Melvin---no, Carl, that's who he was with.

Mr. Ball.

What about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. Arce.

He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.

Mr. Ball.

Was he outside?

Mr. Arce.

No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.

Mr. Ball.

Dougherty ate his lunch?

Mr. Arce.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Did he go outdoors after lunch? I don't know; I didn't see him. Who went outdoors with you? Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and Charles. You stood there how long before the parade came along?

Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere. around there. I am not too sure about that.

Mr. Ball.

Did you see the President go by?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I did. I seen him when he turned the corner and when he went down that underpass thing and I heard them shots and I couldn't see anything. There was a lot of people.

Mr. Ball.

Where were you standing when you heard the shots?

Mr. Arce.

I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.

Mr. Ball.

You were not on the sidewalk?

Mr. Arce.

No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view. and still couldn't see.

Mr. Ball.

Did you hear shots?

Mr. Arce.

Yeah.

Mr. Ball.

How many?

Mr. Arce.

Three.

Mr. Ball.

Where did you make out the direction of the sound?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. When you were on the grass, were you south where you were? Where were you with reference to the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Arce.

I was down to the west side, a little more to the west.

Mr. Ball.

Were you west of the building itself?