Yes, sir.
Dr. OLIVER. I came to Edgewood Arsenal, then the Army Chemical Center, in 1957, and originally to work, take charge of the animal colonies but immediately I got interested in the research and started working in the field of wound ballistics and have been in it ever since, and am presently Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch.

Mr. Specter.

Have you been in charge of a series of tests performed to determine certain wound ballistics on circumstances analogous to the underlying facts on wounds inflicted upon President Kennedy and Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. Specter.

And in the course of those tests what weapon was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was identified as Commission Exhibit 139. It was a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

Mr. Specter.

Did the designation, Commission Exhibit No. 139, appear on the body of that rifle?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; it did.

Mr. Specter.

What type of bullets were used in the tests which you performed?
Dr. OLIVIER. We used the Western ammunition, Western being a division of Olin Industries, Winchester Western, it was lot 6,000 to 6.5 mm. round. Has a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,160 feet per second.

Mr. Specter.

And were those bullets obtained by you upon information provided to you by the Commission's staff as to the identity of the bullets which were believed to have been used during the assassination?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I first got the identity from the people at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and then I further checked with the Commission to see if that was right before ordering this type of ammunition.

Mr. Specter.

And where were those bullets obtained from?
Dr. OLIVIER. I obtained 100 rounds from Remington at Bridgeport, Conn., and Dr. Dziemian obtained another 160 rounds, I believe, from Winchester in New Haven.

Mr. Specter.

Did you perform certain tests to determine the wound ballistics and include in that the penetration power of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, which you referred to, firing the Western Cartridge Co. bullet by comparison with other types of bullets?
Dr. OLIVIER. We didn't fire any of the others at the same time. These had been fired previously. We have all these records for comparison.

Mr. Specter.

Was the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle then fired for comparison purposes with the other bullets where you already had your experience?
Dr. OLIVIER. No; it was fired for the purposes for which--to try to shed some light on say the factors leading to the assassination and all, not for comparison with the other bullets.

Mr. Specter.

I now show you a photograph which is marked as Commission Exhibit No. 844, may it please the Commission, and ask you if this photograph was prepared by you in conjunction with the study on the Mannlicher-Carcano and the Western Cartridge Co. bullet?
Dr. OLIVER. Yes; it was.

Mr. Specter.

Would you explain to the Commission what that photograph depicts?
Dr. OLIVIER. Actually, the bullet passed through two gelatin blocks. This was done as part of an energy study to see the amount of energy imparted to the block of gelatin taking a high-speed motion picture. These blocks show a record of the permanent cavity left in the gelatin. This is not necessarily the total penetration. This bullet when it comes out of the second block still has quite a bit of penetrating power. Quite a few of these bullets would go into a dirt bank and imbed themselves so deeply that they couldn't be recovered.

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